Episode Description
The ABA Unfiltered team is joined by Dr. Leslie Neely from the University of Texas at San Antonio to talk about the university’s BCBA program and what sets it aside from others around the county. The conversation focuses on the current system for becoming a BCBA and Tim and Leslie share their thoughts on what improvements and changes we, as an industry, can make to better prepare future BCBAs.
Full transcript
0:10 Tim Crilly:
Hello and welcome back to another episode of ABA Unfiltered. I’m your host, Tim Crilly, and today, finally, I was able to convince a newer friend of mine, but a friend nonetheless, Dr. Leslie Neely. She is an associate professor in the educational psychology department at the University of Texas at San Antonio. She is charged with, amongst other things, I’m sure, help creating that the next generation of BCBAs. And when I started to learn about her work and get to know Leslie, I knew she was someone we had to have on the show. So I badgered a little bit and she reluctantly joined. I think she’s she’s still a little skeptical. So we’ll see what happens today. But uh Leslie, thank you so much for coming on. Um, I’m really excited about this topic because I think it’s something that we’ve touched on in the past on this show, but never with someone who really has their hands on the process, quite like you. So if you don’t mind, take a couple minutes to introduce yourself, talk about, you know, your your career and how you ended up uh where you are today.
1:17 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Sure. So uh, you know, I kind of had a winding approach to ABA, although I as I find out and hear other people’s stories, I find they also found ABA in kind of a uh unusual way. But I was a civil engineer and I worked on toll roads in Austin. So I think I was hated by all of Austin. And uh one of the my my engineering friends had a best friend who was doing their doctorate at UT Austin. And we met one day at La Madeline and she was telling me about what she was doing. And I thought that’s it, that’s what I need to do. Um, so I I say I retired from engineering and actually uh Dr. Mandy Rispoli, she ended up going to AM and recruited me into the master’s program and then into the doc program. And here I am today, and back in San Antonio where I was born and raised, and uh, you know, just running our program and clinics and doing awesome new partnerships like with Blue Sprig and our new hospital that’s coming on board.
2:22 Tim Crilly:
That’s fantastic. So when you say people hated you, they didn’t know they hated you, they just knew they hated someone. Oh, but didn’t know it was you. Oh, they knew it was you.
2:30 Dr. Leslie Neely:
No, they knew it was us. So we would we would do the community forums and we would have background yelling stuff like only trolls charge tolls. Oh. Yeah.
2:40 Tim Crilly:
And and sounds like a parks and rec episode. It was a little bit like, yeah, you you are a Leslie, so that makes sense.
2:46 Dr. Leslie Neely:
That’s right. I I identify with parks and recs for sure.
2:50 Tim Crilly:
Okay. Uh we digress, which typically typically happens. Uh so so the educational psychology department, what is that? What type of uh of students? Is it all BCBAs or is it people that are uh seeking other types of degrees?
3:07 Dr. Leslie Neely:
We actually we have two major uh programs in our department. So we have the uh ABA program, then we also have our school psychology program. So we are master’s level only right now, and it’s typically students who are looking uh for those licensure certifications and to work in those education or psychology fields. So hence the educational psychology.
3:30 Tim Crilly:
Okay, that’s cool. So there’s there’s people that are going to be future um school psychology uh folks. Okay, got it. So it’s a it’s an interesting mix, um, you know, sort of the that two-track, but you know, there’s probably a little bit of similarity there, but you know, sort of diverging at one point. Okay, so how does it work? How is what is the the process for an incoming student? Is it all master’s level or is it uh are you able to do this as an undergrad um and and work towards it?
4:00 Dr. Leslie Neely:
So we don’t have an undergrad program right now. That’s something that is definitely on our horizon. Uh, we do offer one undergrad class intro to ABA right now, which main goal of that class is to get people excited. Yeah, get them introduced earlier. You know, so many people, it’s you do your you finish your undergrad, you go on, and then you randomly find ABA later on. We need to introduce earlier on. Uh, and then our master’s program, they come into our master’s program, it’s a two-year program. And right from the start, it’s internship. At the same time, they’re completing their coursework, and uh they do one-year field work, which is really to get them to that proficiency level as a fluent behavior tech. That they know they can implement a program, they know the language. And then year two is where I think ours digresses a little bit from other programming, and that’s where they start a series of competencies. So they go through and they work with adolescents and adults, they do severe behavior competencies, they uh do telehealth competencies that was new last year. Uh, and they, you know, they really are working on supervision as well. And so we do a lot of those things that you have to do when you’re a BCBA that you don’t know if you just do the behavior tech for two years. And we work on those hard skills and those soft skills. So we have a pretty robust programming. And I will tell you, they say it’s very hard. And when they get to the end of it though, they a year after they call and they say, wow, I’m like so prepared. They’re getting those clinical director positions right off the bat. They’re, you know, ready to hit the ground running after they graduate.
5:43 Tim Crilly:
You know, it’s an interesting point you bring up because I think if you look at the history of sort of the the BCBA as a credential, you can look at probably three or four different sort of phases, you know, hey, we have this new thing. Would you come and take this test? You know, and just to sort of like get this first generation of people just to put that behind them. And then, you know, there was that, okay, now there’s there’s the coursework or, you know, and it’s a wide array of people with a wide range of backgrounds, like, you know, you coming from a civil engineering background. I happen to come from an education, I had a, you know, I was a teacher, sort of transitioned, went back to school twice, uh, you know, to sort of get into that that that mold. Uh, but you know, and now we’re, I don’t know, maybe if we’re in phase three where you’re having, you know, more concentrated programs that are popping up around the country. Um, you know, but I still think there’s maybe a phase four that we need to to work towards. And I I want to get to that as as we get there. But how do you see this current sort of model? Do you do you? I mean, I think it has to be so much better than what it was when I came up when I felt like, and this is no, you know, discredit to anyone that was involved in my process, I felt like I was being trained to pass a test, not necessarily be quite ready to handle the rigors of actually being a supervisor. It sounds like you guys have taken that next phase and you’re able to sort of feel a lot more comfortable about that group of people that are coming out of your program. Does that does that feel accurate?
7:19 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Yeah, so you know, I I was very lucky and I had great mentors and supervisors, and they really did the wraparound, you know, programming, but also I did a doctorate. So it was a little different. I would say that, you know, the past the test is incredibly important. We need to make sure there’s a minimum level competency. But what I really want for our students is to tackle that issue of behavioral artistry and compassionate care and to make sure that they can not only that they can do it, right? They can go and implement a program, but we’re considering, you know, the caregivers in the process. We’re considering our behavior text in the process, our RBTs. Uh, we’re being humanistic and compassionate, and you’re able to modify your approach for the resources that are available, for this, the settings that are available. And I think the only real way to do that is to ensure you get a multiple exemplar training, right? You get uh apply your behavior analytics skills in this setting, in a school setting, apply it in a home setting, in a clinic setting, and with different populations. Um, and so it’s it’s really taking it just from the BCBA, but putting the analyst back in, right? That scientific approach, database approach, not just quantitative. We can’t be quantitative, we have to be qualitatively connective too. Um, so that’s that’s where I’m hoping we’re going as you’re saying that level four or phase four.
8:47 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
8:48 Dr. Leslie Neely:
I think the field is recognizing that, that we need to uh start focusing on this, that we have to get better bedside manner, that we have to you know really connect with our our consumers, our clients.
9:00 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, I think you you hit you hit uh on a hot topic, that caregiver guidance, like you know, that that ability to interact with with caregivers. I think when this first started, at least for when it first started with me, the concept of caregiver guidance really wasn’t um uh you know a thing. And I I it maybe it was a thing, but it was sort of just if you get to it or if they want it, or you know, but then with insurance mandates and and you know, um CPT codes coming out with you know actual codes to say you you need to provide this, and you know, the importance of transitioning care from that ABA team onto the family, you know, it’s a it’s a it’s a real thing. And I think there’s um a lot of people that got into this line of work wanting to work directly with children and working on behavior and don’t necessarily have the skill set to be those effective caregiver guidance folks, and subsequently maybe aren’t empowered by the organizations they’re working with to sort of give them the tools to provide effective caregiver guidance. So if you have ineffective caregiver guidance and the family’s not really getting anything out of it, everyone’s sort of happy when it’s canceled. And if it’s canceled by the parent, you know, okay, well, they canceled on me, I’ll just go fill my time with case supervision or something else. So it becomes this sort of ignored service. So it’s nice to hear that you guys are placing an emphasis on that. Can you talk a little bit about how you guys go about that? Because I do find that is a big, a big sticking point with sort of where we’re headed next in this conversation.
10:34 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Yeah, uh so I will say kind of one of our mottos in our program, and actually the motto in our program is be comfortable being uncomfortable, because it is very uncomfortable for us. We can be very effective in a clinical setting. But if we’re effective in a clinical setting and that child is not making improvements outside of that clinical setting, we have done nothing. We uh are ineffective overall. And I kind of always say, like, what if you went to the doctor and the doctor, you know, gave you some medications, but as soon as you left the doctor, the medications were not effective.
11:08 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
11:08 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Right. Like, what’s the point of that? Um, so we we talk about this very purposefully in our case presentations in our practicum year, in making sure that you provide options of interventions, meeting with the families before you finalize the plan. And I think everybody does that. Uh, and then having phased approaches to the plans to ensure that they’re going, we’re going to eventually program, final program will be uh easy to facilitate to that generalization setting. We we do monthly trainings and it’s just built into our like our rotations. I can see, you know, some of the issues we work through. Some caregivers are very excited, very into it. Some caregivers are not very excited and not very into it. And I think that is incredibly telling. If I rather, and her, maybe because I just like a challenge, I like working with the caregivers are a little bit um more hesitant to me that says we have not helped them contact reinforcement, and we need to make sure that we are programming so that they can contact reinforcement. And if what we’re doing is not important, then we need to figure out a way to make sure it’s important for their home environment and for their school environment too, when you’re you’re working with teachers. I don’t know if I answered the question.
12:30 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, you absolutely did. And I think that, you know, no, you did. It’s it’s also the um, you know, you come into a situation where, okay, well, this worked with the last family I worked with. So I’m just gonna stubbornly apply it to the to the next one. And maybe that’s not a style or a tactic or whatever you want to call it, that they’re gonna be able to implement and that ability to be flexible about how me as that clinician wanna come in and say, okay, I hear you. This this is not gonna work because you know, when I leave, I don’t have to sort of, you know, I’m not exposed to that behavior and all these things. And just because I think it’s the best way doesn’t mean it’s the best way. We need to come up with a plan that actually you’re gonna be able to implement, or we’re just all spinning our wheels. And I think that’s part of some of the, you know, the the the problems that maybe we we face with with that caregiver guidance model. It’s people aren’t necessarily trained to have multiple tricks in their bag. They kind of have one or two, and if it doesn’t work, there’s there’s a you get stuck. And then if you’re stuck, you stop doing it, and and that’s just no good for anybody.
13:39 Dr. Leslie Neely:
You contact punishment. Well, and you know, this is not unique to us, the medical field, you know, physicians have very similar issues. Uh, I think what is unique to us is our science is in human behavior. And we really um we’re doing the top-down model. We’re doing the, we are the expert and we need to share with you, right, the expert guidance of how to do it, versus uh looking at, you know, not only the child’s programming, but how that, you know, three, four-term contingency really affects the caregivers’ behavior as part of the whole ecosystem and making sure that they we’re making it easy for them to implement, we’re reducing that response effort, and we’re helping them contact reinforcement quickly. And if you look at it from like that analytical perspective and get that information from them about the resources in their home environment and what is really going to be motivating for them. And I’ll give you examples. So I had, you know, one caregiver say, look, you know, I can’t implement any of this. I have to do this, I have to do that, I have to make dinner, I have to, you know, do the laundry. And I said, and said, Well, you know, I think what one of the things we could do is we could teach him how to do the laundry. And that could free something off your plate, and then we can talk about maybe tackling this other thing. So we did. We taught him how to make the do the laundry, change the laundry, fold the laundry. He did it, no problem. And it helped mom become a little bit more available. She contacted reinforcement immediately and she was like, What? She did not believe we were going to be able to teach her son how to do the laundry. I guarantee you, she was not into it. She highly doubted us. And uh, at the end of the day, demonstrating that for her, I think went a really long way in realizing, oh, these people are really here to make my life better. My quality of life, yeah. And rather than add another thing to my plate.
15:31 Tim Crilly:
That’s a that’s a great way to look at it. Um, what can we, what can we take away? What can we, what burden can we ease? That’s a I hadn’t really thought about it that way. That’s a that’s a great way to look at it. Okay, rabbit hole. Sorry. Uh happens every time. So, you know, I look at sort of like the current model, school aside or you know, whatever it is. Um, you know, I I think we acknowledge the fact that there are not enough BCBAs to cover the needs of um the growing demand. And maybe in some some urban city areas it’s a lot easier, but you get into the outskirts and you know, Texas being a very large place, California where I’m at, a very large place. You know, okay, it doesn’t seem like there’s um, you know, not enough BCBAs, but you get into certain parts of the of the state and yeah, it becomes a real problem. Not to mention you go to places like New Mexico or Montana or wherever. It’s not like, well, there’s no autism here, so we’d we’re good. There’s autism, there’s just not really enough people to uh to serve. So the idea of yes, we need to create a workforce and we need to create it fast is obviously a driving factor in in this process. And the more we can do, obviously the better, and that that helps more families or you know, but I think the the current problem as I see it, and you know, please you know step on me if I’m if if I’m if I’m off base, but if you’re an agency, you have sort of two choices. You can either invest a lot of time and energy and money, or sort of the lack of money that you are generating through that person’s time and create a better trained, competent person to be a BCBA. Or you can do the bare minimum and they’re they’re billing and they’re doing all these things, but they’re not getting the interaction and the training that is needed, but they are able to pass the test and then enter into the to the workforce. So now we have a group of people that, yes, pass the test and that’s great, and technically they can do all these things and go bill, but they’re also asked to be sort of um a jack of all trades type of person when maybe they haven’t been exposed to everything that they’re going to face through that training or that internship model. How do we how do we start to remedy that? Do you have thoughts on how do we start to to um increase that training and that that period of time where you’re not a RBT anymore, but you’re not a BCBA yet. You’re sort of somewhere in between. What are your thoughts on that period of this journey?
18:16 Dr. Leslie Neely:
I have so so many thoughts.
18:17 Tim Crilly:
Okay, good.
18:19 Dr. Leslie Neely:
I think I think one of the things you mentioned that is a really big obstacle is the amount of time and effort it takes for a supervisor to take them from that initial period of I’m a really good RBT now to I can be a fluent uh BCBA that can supervise, right? And so um some of the things that I think need to be on our mind about that is quality of BCBA versus quantity of BCBA. And I don’t know that it’s quality or quantity, I think it can be quality and quantity. Um, some people may not want to go into being a supervisor in the future, and that’s okay. There’s a lot of roles that a BCBA can play within an organization and in a community. And some people just are not gonna be that caregiver trainer, that they’re not gonna be that um future supervisor. I do see steps that our organizations are taking. For example, the new requirement that you have to be a BCBA for a certain amount of time, I think it’s like one or two years, and supervised by another BCBA before you can supervise. And uh the other thing I am starting to see organizations do is look at preparing a smaller quantity of BCBAs with higher level supervision rather than offering and dispersing, you know, like group supervision, individual supervision, because it is a really big ask on organizations to do that. For us, uh, where we I see the missing piece as really being, you know, the universities and uh these organizations who can help to serve as that overarching organization. So the way we have it set up at UTSA, UTSA is the main organization, and we have a whole bunch of affiliated sites that our students work at. Um, and it’s they go through rotations through different sites. So they’ll work for a clinical program for 20 hours a week for their two years, and then the rest of the 20 hours spent or 10, 15 hours is spent in going through a series of um competencies that they can take that framework of what our science is and implement it in really discrete ways. Uh so it’s a little bit like uh a training model with you know challenges, right? Like, okay, now apply your ABA knowledge in this way, because it’s not a protocol, right? We don’t go in and here’s what you do when you do a caregiving um session, or here’s what you do when you have a kid who uh needs verbal behavior intervention. It is a here’s the issue, here’s our hypothesis, we’re gonna test it with our single case methodology, make those database decisions um and uh you know, evaluate whether or not our intervention is effective. So, to your question, what do we do between that year of they’ve or between that time when they’re not quite a BCBA and they’re not quite an RBT? I think a lot, I think the our community partners are trying to do an apprenticeship model. Where that becomes super tricky is that you know you’re competing against um, our students are needing to have that paid internship. And you can’t really pay for somebody to learn how to do indirect or unrestricted hours. Uh so that’s where I see our university, we are really good at that. We can offer a lot of um you know, research. Opportunities. They can be with me as a graduate research assistant and uh conducting assessments and taking data, and I can pay them for that piece of it. We can get grants to really support them learning how to do the telehealth, for example, but that’s not billable work. That is not one that you can bill. And uh that I think that becomes a really big issue if you’re an organization of how are we going to sustain this training model, make sure we’re producing high quality. Now I want to just wrap up real quick with the quality versus quantity. Kind of the way I visualize this when I got to San Antonio is building, you know, we don’t take really big cohorts for this con comprehensive. Uh, it’s more eight to 10 students at a time. And that’s not our whole cohort. Some of the people are doing their uh internship outside of our comprehensive model. But our comprehensive students are then going out and they are becoming the trainers of their organization. So building sustainability and really focusing on a smaller number who will then do high quality supervision is I think the way we’re gonna have to go forward because we can not meet the workforce demands without, you know, and produce really um thoughtful or do thoughtful preparation of every single person. We don’t have enough BCBs to do that. Uh so anyway.
23:28 Tim Crilly:
No, it’s all great points. And I think you go back to that sort of that time period uh, you know, and I think a solution that needs to be kicked around a little bit is can we can we get together with with funding sources and say, hey, let’s create a real internship model, let’s create a third tier or a residency, whatever you want to call it. And you attach this is the requirements, you have to at least done, you know, two of the courses within the thing and you’re under supervision. Um, but now this person can build this code with a modifier that’s you know a rate in between with the oversight of that BCBA. And now maybe that BCBA has the ability to actually have a slightly larger caseload because they actually have a team of you know people that they are working with that are taking some of the work, not you know, the the totality of it, but hey, you’re gonna do these two or three things on these cases for me, and we’re gonna rotate through and we’re gonna do a little bit of training on it as well, but it it’s it’s something that can be reimbursed, you know. So, but it’s not at a BCBA rate, but it’s also not at an RBT rate, and it’s all uh within a window, so it’s not a permanent position. It’s not if the goal is the you know, the the the health plan is incentivized to create a larger network workforce as well. So you can 18 months, you know, whatever sort of time limit you want to put on it, and then that person is expected to then be a BCBA by the end of it. So that’s something that I, you know, I don’t know who you we need to get at the table to to do that, but it it feels like it’s a it’s a reasonable solution because I think it mirrors sort of other uh other areas of of you know the the health the healthcare world. We’ve just been locked into this uh tier one, tier two. Now you come out to California, there is some level of of of tier three tiers, but it’s really for BC ABAs, which is nice, but that’s more of a permanent you’re locked into that or you’re going back to school. So you know, I think it has to go beyond um that BC ABA level. It needs to be this person that’s not anything yet, but they’re gonna be this. So that’s sort of something that I’ve I’ve been railing about for a little bit, but I don’t have a magic model.
25:41 Dr. Leslie Neely:
That’s exactly kind of my thought process with if we’re going medical model, right? That’s what they do. They if we’re comparing to them, they have internship and then they have residency, and then you know, they go forward and they continue to take their boards every year. Um they also, because they’re in the medical field, uh it they also get, you know, funding from state and and federal funding to prepare the workforce and to ensure that they’re getting that time uh supported, you know, tuition reimbursement or stipend so that they can really and truly focus on learning. Because you’re right, if if you’re learning and you’re not really an RBT, right? You’re not really providing direct services, you’re doing more than that. Um, that takes you away from those direct services that you can’t bill for. You can’t bill as a BCBA. There’s got to be an in-between there. There’s got to be uh some acknowledgement that these people are learning or students are learning higher level skills and they are adding value to the case, but they’re still needing that support.
26:43 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
26:44 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Yeah.
26:45 Tim Crilly:
If only we were in charge, wouldn’t it be so much easier? I don’t want to be in charge of anything. Just this one thing and then just back away. Just get it done and back away. Love them and leave. Love them and leave them. Yeah.
26:58 Dr. Leslie Neely:
No, it’s that’s something that’s got to happen. I think. I think you’re right on that.
27:03 Tim Crilly:
Yeah. And you know, I think it would, you’d have a lot of, you know, within six months, you’d have a ton of data to sift through and figure out, you know, what it’s doing, what’s effective. Um, you know, and maybe people would identify, wow, I’m really good at assessment. I should focus on that. Or wow, I really like this caregiver guidance thing. Maybe I should really dig into that. And you actually get people that are more sort of laser skilled on certain things, as opposed to trying to get everyone to be able to do everything decently. That that’s a conversation for a different day as well.
27:38 Dr. Leslie Neely:
A whole nother conversation. But I will tell you, the more you learn, the quicker you are to say, hey, I’m not the verbal behaviorist. Hey, I can’t do feeding. That’s my friend.
27:48 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
27:48 Dr. Leslie Neely:
I am the severe behaviorist. I will take all those kids and I’m good at it.
27:52 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
27:52 Dr. Leslie Neely:
So then you’re faster, you’re more efficient, you’re more effective overall. And not only are you quantitatively effective, you’re qualitatively effective because you have now the time to focus on those soft skills.
28:04 Tim Crilly:
Yeah. You know, and it’s it’s it is a little frustrating. And I get it. We are still, I know we we it feels like we’ve been doing it forever. We’re very young. But with that said, we’re not adaptable. We don’t, I don’t think we push enough. And there’s maybe there’s too much fraction in our or in our industry as well. Not everyone sort of comes to the table with the same sort of thought process, um, you know, because I’m an agency that would rather get people, you know, certified, boom, out in the field, billing, you know, and I’m not going to change the model in which I work. So you run into people that, you know, it could be obstacles to those, those, those sorts of things. It’s going to take, I think, a financial avenue from a health plan or a group of health plans that say this is this is a benefit to our membership. This is a benefit to our our future membership and to that sort of the the way we build our networks. Um, but we don’t have a lot of data to support it because they sit around and they say, Well, I everyone that almost everyone that calls is getting into the service, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re getting into quality service.
29:13 Dr. Leslie Neely:
I think there’s got to be some connection in research there of this higher level better training model leads to more efficient right services. And then once you get the monies in there, you can start cost-benefit analysis.
29:27 Tim Crilly:
Yeah. So okay. Well, now I’m bummed out. Geez.
29:31 Tim Crilly:
Okay.
29:32 Tim Crilly:
No, this was this was great. This is helpful. I think the more we start talking about it and you know, people start to really recognize um what’s going on. And, you know, you think about what the pandemic probably meant for supervision. Um those people, it’s, you know, you do have a like sort of a gap year or more for a lot of people that are about to take the exam because they had a lot of virtual stuff as opposed to in the clinics or you know, going to homes together and those sorts of things. So it it it’s it’s it’s a real, I think it’s one of the top two or three issues within our our industry right now. And it’s something that I’m I’m glad we’re talking about and and I really appreciate you coming on to chat about it a little bit.
30:16 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Yeah, well, I thank you for convincing me. It was a pleasure to talk to you about it. And I have so many more ideas.
30:22 Tim Crilly:
Okay, well, hey, see I’m I’m trying, I’m writing down I uh guests for season four. So just be ready. You’ll you’re gonna get the you’re gonna get the call.
30:31 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Um I meant more for us to talk about later.
30:33 Tim Crilly:
Oh no, no, no, no. I record everything now. There’s no there’s no freebies uh uh with me anymore. Um where can people go to find out a little bit more about your program?
30:43 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Uh so we have a website UTSA or ABA UTSA.com. Um I’m just going to verify that that is I am not super great at that.
30:57 Tim Crilly:
We’re giving people time to get a pen out, so that’s perfect.
30:59 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Okay, I’ll go a little slower. Okay, yes, www.abautsa.com. And that tells about all of our programs and uh links to our graduate catalog and and the different offerings that we have at UTSA.
31:13 Tim Crilly:
That’s great. Is is it all uh live or is there some level of online?
31:18 Dr. Leslie Neely:
We actually were uh I think officially designated as hybrid. A majority of ours is face-to-face, and we do have a couple of classes that are offered online though. Like our ethics class tends to be uh online.
31:32 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
31:32 Tim Crilly:
Perfect. Okay, well, thank you. I glad you got your plug-in, it’s important.
31:36 Tim Crilly:
So yeah, that’s go go learn from Dr.
31:39 Tim Crilly:
Neely, go go enroll, be a fantastic BCBA in two years or whatever the hell long it takes nowadays. So I know, and that’s part of that’s it, it should take a long time, but it’s also frustrating that it takes a long time.
31:53 Dr. Leslie Neely:
Well, I’ll tell you, when I graduated my master’s, I thought I am not ready. And then when I graduated my doc three years later, I thought, okay, I can do a little bit of this. I’d kind of feel good, but I don’t think I really felt competent until like two years ago. So okay.
32:08 Tim Crilly:
Well, I’ll I’ll let you know when I get there. So luckily, I don’t I don’t practice at all anymore. I’m just I they they joke that I just play a BCBA on a podcast. That’s really my my clinical uh role at this point.
32:21 Dr. Leslie Neely:
So everybody has their strengths.
32:23 Tim Crilly:
I get it, I get it. Um okay, well, thank you so much. Um, I I hope you will come on again and we can talk more about just about everything uh under the sun with you. I think you have a great perspective on a lot of issues facing our field. So thank you. And to everyone out there, um, thanks for tuning in. And uh feel free to share this episode with anyone who you think might benefit from the conversation. Thanks again.