Episode Description
Dr. Shala Alai-Rosales from the University of North Texas joins ABA Unfiltered host, Tim Crilly, to discuss a recent webinar she gave titled Culturally Responsive Inclusive and Progressive Supervision. During the conversion, Tim and Shala dive into recent workforce demographic data and how the next generation of clinicians can have a lasting meaningful impact on diversity and inclusivity in our field.
Full transcript
0:08 Tim Crilly:
Hello and welcome back to another episode of ABA Unfiltered. I’m your host, Tim Crilly, and as I just learned, I’m joined by a podcast veteran, so I’m a little bit more nervous than I ever was having her on. But we are joined by Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales from the University of North Texas. And I was fortunate enough to get Dr. Alai-Rosales to join us through a mutual friend of ours because she just did a fascinating CEU webinar for us a few weeks ago, which was titled Culturally Responsive, Inclusive, and Progressive Supervision. And I took a bunch of notes. I have a bunch of things I wanted to talk about since we have a limited time. We are going to narrow it down. But Shahla, when Amanda, our friend, introduced you, she gave quite a paragraph of your accomplishments. And unfortunately, if we were to go through them all, we wouldn’t have time to actually have a conversation. So if you don’t mind introducing yourself and just maybe giving the high-level cliff notes of who you are and what you’re up to these days.
1:15 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
Sure. Thank you for having me. I don’t know if I’m a veteran.
1:20 Tim Crilly:
You name dropped a couple episodes that you’ve been on. So I’m just going to call you out on it.
1:25 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
Well, thank you. It’s been interesting to engage in this format. And I hope you know our conversation will help help some people move things forward. I’m Shalla and I am a professor at the University of North Texas in the Department of Behavior Analysis. My training has been primarily behavior analytic and also in early childhood education. My work has primarily been with children and families, both children and families who have children with autism slash autistic people in their family, but also with people who would be considered neurotypical. Also, I work in the community. I have a lot of wonderful students who are oftentimes my collaborators and co-authors and co-activists. We we try to do both writing, applied research, and also just service and work in our own communities. And then we try to get together, reflect on that, and share whatever we can with other people. As everybody knows, our world is changing a lot.
2:55 Tim Crilly:
Yeah.
2:55 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
And how we interact with one another and how we provide services. I think it’s a period of deep re reflection and change. So it’s interesting to have a chance to have a conversation about some of that. So thank you.
3:11 Tim Crilly:
That’s great. And I really appreciate it. You know, I didn’t tell you this leading up to it, but we actually have met before a long, long time ago, when uh I was at UNT and they were opening up um the autism center there. And I was associated with that organization that was involved in that. And I think we met at a a luncheon that day. So I have met you before. You don’t remember me, but when Amanda mentioned your name, I’m like, oh, I know who that is. She’s uh UNT. So um, you know, so there you go. We we have a we have a past, even though we you may have not realized it. So um it’s it’s really nice for you to come on and and and talk. And and like I mentioned, you know, the the webinar you gave was full of information and it was a lot of thought-provoking um stuff. So my my understanding is I think it’s a it’s for public consumption. I I could be wrong and I could check with Amanda on that, but anyone listening now um to get back to that, even if you don’t need the CEUs, it’s it’s worth um taking a listen to to really get the scope of of what was discussed in that conversation. But for me, something I really kind of wanted to pull apart and maybe dive in a little bit with you was the sort of the concept of the lack of diversity in our field. Um we have, you know, you had a slide that had like the fathers of, I know this is an audio thing, but I’ll describe a slide. Um, you know, the fathers of ABA. And there was, you know, it was a pretty common theme across that the pictures. They were, you know, older white guys. And you know, you kind of talked about that and and how you know we are part of a um interconnected global community. I’m sorry, there’s people talking downstairs. Um, I’m leaving right now with mouse. So Chelsea’s on her way out with mouse right now.
5:06 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
I love it.
5:07 Tim Crilly:
Yeah. I I I love how life is um it’s it’s an interconnected global community, as I was about to say.
5:17 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
It’s kind of like this crazy multi-element design where every there’s all these paths going at the same time and we’re all kind of lacing with one another. But I I kind of like hearing life in the background.
5:30 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, okay. Well, maybe we’ll, you know, Andrew, maybe we leave this in. We’ll we’ll decide. Okay, but getting back to it, you know, you you talked about the fathers of ABA and how we are sort of an interconnected global community. And maybe that interconnected global community more represents um the population we serve as opposed to maybe who we are, the people that are actually um serving that population. You have a diverse group of people that need services, but not necessarily the most diverse group of people providing those services. And um can you just sort of maybe I connect the dots on that a little bit and your thoughts about you know where maybe the field has been and how do we get it to where we want it to be?
6:16 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
Yeah, yeah. Um so I I think I’ll tell you about something I’m writing right now. I’m working on a chapter about evidence-based practice and culture. And um I think one of the things that I’m learning as I write the chapter is there’s this idea. Um, and and actually the author where I saw him contextualize this, uh, his the author is Lee. And he’s talking about how there are some non-Western ways of looking at things where you can hold two very different things in your hand. Um, and I think, especially when we think about evidence-based practice and what we’re doing as behavior analysts, um, that there are two very different things to hold in our hand during this period. One of them is that we have made tremendous advances in terms of how to help people learn a lot of skills in an accelerated way, how to make progress through our interventions. And all of that work has been done primarily in a Western uh global north white context. Um, you know, you look at you look at the people who do the research have primarily been from one group of people. The people who review under the scientific review process are one group of people. Um and the directors of programs, the implementers of programs again are primarily um white global north uh from a from a western, western context and a lens. You know, so it doesn’t negate the importance of any of that, but we’re living in a world that includes a lot of other people. Those people have not been um part, you know, we talk about being at the table, they haven’t been at the table and haven’t necessarily been part of the development of that, um, but they are part of the human family. So I think one of our challenges right now is broadening who we are and broadening perhaps how we look at things and what kinds of values are seen essential in both our science and practice. Um and I also think that um, you know, the data that have come out recently, there there have been several studies. I think the first one was by Bulloan colleagues who just surveyed behavior analysts and saw that um that most of the people uh, and they had a pretty large number of respondents in that in that survey, but most of the people are white women that are um that are BCBAs, and most of them have not received training and how to work with people who are different than them. And what was a little alarming in that survey was many of them thought that they were equipped to do that. Um, and that, you know, that’s that’s one of the things that happens when you’re in a new area is you don’t know what you don’t know. Um, so it’s not surprising, but it is also something that we need to attend to and and think about. I think when the BACB and ABAI released their data, it was very similar that the majority of the fields were white. And um and actually the BACBs was was even more informative because they were looking at people in the leadership levels and then people RBTs. And the RBTs weren’t mostly, well, maybe they were about half, I can’t remember the numbers, but um, but there was a large number of Hispanic and people who identified as black or Hispanic or Latina, and um that actually mirrors the rest of society in some ways. You know, you look at medical communities, who’s on top and who’s on the bottom, um, there are some similar parallels. So some of what we see isn’t different than the rest of society, but it is also something to be changed. Um and by doing so, I think, and and I think many people agree that we will become better, that there’s a whole world of people who have, you know, beautiful ways of looking at things, beautiful ideas, different ways of knowing things that can be that that can widen and expand what we do and how we do it.
11:12 Tim Crilly:
Absolutely. I know I I actually took screenshots of some of those those charts that you had, and I really wanted to make sure that you know we we discussed them a little bit because I found it fascinating to think, okay, it’s a predominantly white uh group of people. And the the next sort of the middle uh graphic said that they felt very competent in what they’re doing, which is good. I mean, I’m I’m guessing that’s from a scientific approach and all those things, but then the vast majority of them said they had either little to none, uh any sort of you know, sort of diversity or inclusive training that that relates to how you then go out and do your job. Because just because you know the X’s and O’s of behavior analytics and your ability to go in and create programming, it doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily going to be the most effective person for that family at that given time if you’re unable to sort of get outside of your your bubble or your worldview or for those types of things. So from a from a supervision standpoint, if you’re looking at sort of what can we do as you know, sort of uh the established BCBAs and sort of helping that next group and the group after that from a supervision standpoint, do you have thoughts on how we can better equip those clinicians to be more culturally aware or sensitive, or you know, sort of whatever term you want to apply to that?
12:43 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
Well, I think um you know, maybe I can break it down to three areas with with this sort of preface that part of the reason this is so difficult is is uh all of humanity is grappling with this. It’s it’s not specific, and there’s definitely not a checklist. Do this and everything will be okay. Um, so I think I think what we have, maybe think about it as sort of three pillars. Um, we have care and we have humility and we have a posture of learning. So so maybe I’ll break it down that way a little bit. Um I think to focus, to think about care and what that means for the people we’re serving, either as supervisors, but also helping our supervisees think about how they’re working with um the families and children that they’re serving. But when we think about care, that that should take a lot of unpacking. Or I think it would do us well to unpack it. That you know, we’re thinking about things like empathy, we’re thinking about things like compassion, but we’re also thinking about and and all that translates into when you’re trying to interact and collaborate with someone who’s very different from you. It also includes understanding that there’s systemic oppression that the families may have experienced and may even be experiencing with you and you don’t even know it. And that we’re working in structures that maybe sometimes work against us really getting to know the family or the humans that we’re working with, um, and that are also making it difficult for the family in other ways that we’re not even seeing. So I think there’s a lot we have to do in terms of how we act on the care that we have and the heart that we have as behavior analysts, and how how we build ways to to make sure that our reinforcers are in the right place and that there aren’t things that are prohibiting us from um having family well-being and honoring uh the way a family would like to be, their values, and how they um they would like their children um to experience life, and then also how the child would like to experience life. You know, one of our jobs is is to help develop agency, to help a child make their own choices as they go across the lifespan, how they want to be. So thinking about those things takes some intention on our part about how we care and how we show that. I I think the other thing Patricia Wright has talked about this specifically in our field, but is about humility, that we have to start from the position that yes, there’s a lot that we’ve learned, and hopefully we’ve learned a lot about what the evidence base is, but that also we need to be humble and realize there’s a lot we don’t know, and that perhaps the way that evidence base is um considered for a particular child, a person, a family is going to change and be negotiated so that so that we can take that information, take what we know about the principles of behavior change, but also take all the knowledge the family brings or the community is bringing. And then the third thing is that we are in this process of learning. I think it’s very important, even in our own community. Like if I’m practicing in Denton, Texas, I should know who’s in my community, what the structural difficulties and justices have been in my community, how people are getting access or not getting access to services, and how comfortable they are with those services, what they think about what’s going. And it doesn’t mean that you’re not in a collaboration because I will bring my experience, my positionality, who I am in the world to the treatment context. I will also bring what I know about uh working with children and families in my case, and and come together to have um to have a dialogue and to figure out what works best for this particular situation. So and and that all those three things together take sort of a constant process of self-reflection, but also being in a community, you know, having colleagues and community members who have the intention of being culturally responsive, of of progressing in ways that work for everybody, and increasing, and increasing just the general level of social justice in community, in your own community, um, for the people around you. And that’s not easy, especially being in a medical system that doesn’t always um give access and is sometimes rigid in the way you can do things, or at least the way we think we can do things. Um I think our job is to sort of develop workarounds and ways to um ways to change the system so that it works for everybody in fair ways.
18:37 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, well, I was just off the top of your head. So thank you. That’s um it’s a pretty good list.
18:44 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
And you know what? I’m also really trying to figure out ways to talk about it because there’s so many levels that one has to consider from your personal interactions to the structures of our organizations and how they’re set up to either help us expand or to contract us more and more. And that is very hard, I think.
19:07 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, the the idea of humility really, I think hit home for me because when you just if you just take even just all the cultural things out of it and you just look at I’m coming in, I have one objective, or you know, what two objectives or three objectives with this this family, going in with the mindset of, okay, I need to see what I need to do, and it might need to be different than what I’m used to doing, because what I did next door with the last family might not work with this one. And I think sometimes that that sort of I know what I’m doing, you need to listen to me, family, becomes becomes an obstacle for for some clinicians and their ability to really make lasting change with that family, because really what you’re there to do is help that family. You can give as much advice as you you want, but if they can’t follow through on the things you’re asking them to do, you’re really not giving them the best possible advice, even if it is quote unquote the most effective way to do it. And then you factor in those cultural um issues as well, where you know maybe they’re not even talking about the fact that this is going on with their family, with other people in their community or their family, or you know, whatever it might be, it becomes a real, real challenge. It’s a hard job. It’s not hard to compare it to other industries where you see this family so much. You’re either in a center or in a home so much that it’s not like going to the dentist every you know, six months uh when you’re in and out. It’s this is part of their their daily life. And it it makes it all that more of a challenge. So that the the point on humility really kind of jumped out at me and then thinking about how you, as a clinician moving forward, need to be able to look inside and say, what am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? How can I improve?
21:02 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
Yeah, and I think in the case of interventions and autism, you know, communication, social activities, like those are the three main human things we’ve got going on. And so if part of what we’re doing is going in and presumably trying to help, um, because because what happens with an intervention, you go in is because there’s there’s a need for extra support or alleviation or something. And so the idea, first of all, what do you intervene on and how um is a is a big issue. And autism sort of intersects with the biggest things in life that that our values are closely embedded with those three areas. And then also it’s not just that you’re intervening at a particular point. And I do think one of the uncomfortable things about the discussions that are going on is that I think an additional an additional topic needs to be thrown into the mix is that it’s it’s not just intervening at a particular point. It’s we’re talking about across the lifespan. So what happens for a very young child and the way you want to to become involved is very different than an adult and the choices that that we make. But I I also think and I hope I’m not offending anyone but I think one of the most dangerous concepts we have in our fields which is is really the antithesis of humility is buy-in that the minute we think buy-in we’re sort of in a bad position because that that’s dominance based and it’s kind of a nice dominance base because you’re going to use lovely ways to get the person to do what you want but it’s still coming in with the position of this is the way and I’m going to convince you. So I think that I hope we can move away from that concept of buy-in and move more towards starting with the the point of quality of life. Eileen Schwartz just wrote a beautiful article about quality of life is our main dependent variable and and the idea that for a young child, for a middle school child, for an adult, for an older person, like quality of life varies and what you do at any point in the lifespan to help build a better quality of life is different and how you prepare like what I did when my kids were two versus 19 was very different. And I think that’s probably true of all children and families. And we go in you know whatever level of training or expertise you have in in terms of changing behavior you go in with that and you offer it and then you start to look basically Barrera and Kramer talk about this as you look for third ways. So what you’re doing is you’re coming in with some expertise, some knowledge, your own position in the world, your own experiences you come in with the child or the family and then you start to not have it be do it my way, get buy-in or the family succumbs, or the family pressures their way, but nobody should be pressuring anyway. It should be putting it all out and seeing so what’s the third way to get to the goals that we all agree on are important for the child and to change behavior in a way that everybody feels is a good way to change it. Because the process is also as important as the outcomes. I don’t know if that was a good explanation no I think it’s great.
24:51 Tim Crilly:
I think the I I hadn’t really heard it explained that way but I have been really I think that the the chatter has really been around how do we from an outcome measure standpoint how do we look at quality of life and understand that for this family it it’s this and that should be the goal and for someone else it’s it’s something entirely different. Now we might have similar ways of trying to to get them to that that standpoint but it’s a it’s a moving target.
25:19 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
And I think if you can you know without using the term buy-in but if like six months in suddenly a family is going to restaurants again or they’ve gone to the movies you know maybe that does create that that buy-in your you’re you know you want but without making it about buy-in but I don’t think it’s buy-in because it’s not what I want like like it’s I’m not getting buy-in from my thing I’m I’m working towards a common purpose or goal with the family you know I and I know that’s what I that’s what I was trying to get at without saying buy in it’s they’re saying well this is a really good thing that’s helping me yeah and which I think is tricky because we we also we do this because there’s something like I love when a kid starts talking I love when a kid you know is able to address themselves. Like I find all those things really reinforcing and and I also love when somebody stops hurting themselves and is able to say I don’t really like what you’re doing you know in a way that doesn’t hurt themselves or other people and I also think that um the ways that I think that all should happen you know are going to vary. There’s there’s um there are many paths to the center. And I think sometimes we get really hooked on a particular way of getting to a goal or we get hooked on a particular goal. That being said I also think for very young children there are some really common goals you know across our whole species in terms of what will help equip them for adult life and adult life that allows them as many opportunities, choices and agency as possible. So that’s where I think it becomes tricky because we don’t really know how different ways of being or cultures interact with that because a lot of people haven’t been able to have a voice in that process. So figuring out how that happens um and also understanding that there are there are very different values in life different things that people place importance on that I think from a very Western lens can seem shocking to us. Well why wouldn’t you want to do that or why wouldn’t you think that’s important? But I think that first of all myself coming from two really different cultures my my mother and father were from two really different cultural milieus and contexts and so I think I was constantly watching how how very differently two sides of my family could look at the world and interact with the world. And I think part of that is what what helps me sometimes realize oh maybe maybe my perspective isn’t you know the only way to look at it. Maybe it should be broadened and look for something above above that. But it’s no go ahead go ahead I I find it really difficult um to to pin down uh you know exactly I I don’t think any of us know exactly what we can do but I think this combination of trying to learn from one another how we look at it and then and also try to to trust each other that we’re all trying to figure it out and not attack each other which is very hard not to do sometimes.
28:58 Tim Crilly:
Yeah I you know I this industry you know just from a how should we go about providing care there’s a lot of disconnect and I say one thing you say another thing you know I don’t think there’s a lot of uniformity around some of of what we try to do day in and day out. And I think that does create certain level of of problems. Some people don’t place enough emphasis on caregiver guidance you know time and others think it’s a you know something you if you’re not doing then you might as well get out of the house and not even work with that family. You know so there’s a lot of disconnect I think but it it is improving. I think as the the national conversation increases people are starting to come out and say okay well maybe it’s not just my way we do need to start to to learn from each other as we evolve I mean ABA is still a very much a new it seem not to me it doesn’t seem like it but when you look at the grand scheme it’s still a very new thing in in in out there especially in sort of in the the healthcare world yeah it’s it’s a new discipline yeah even the science of behavior is a new discipline and how we how we look at how behavior changes I mean you know for the most part we still look at single data paths with that are decontextualized.
30:19 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
So so we’re still learning how to have a science of behavior and that science of behavior has not included in its development big groups of people. And so I think as much as we can to to keep being in learning mode is really important and and to be patient with our poor selves you know that that this is a process and the more we can help one another figure it out but we also need to create safe spaces for everyone to do that. Because I think what what many people have learned including myself under some circumstances is you know just do what they say and and and kind of try to make the best on your own with your own set of values behind the scenes or or to the side um so so I think creating safety for people to voice their objections voice voice their opinions voice their dreams and and to try to work with those I think is really really important especially when you’re talking about um groups who have you know in the the kind of curiarchy groups who have experienced more oppression and less privilege I think that it’s important to make spaces for for those voices to be not only heard but responded to and um to consider on the interaction level the intervention level and the systemic level what what everyone’s saying what that means for change.
32:07 Tim Crilly:
Well I didn’t even get to half of what was was on my my list and uh we’re kind of getting up against it. My head is my head is spinning I think we’ve had about 30 guests and I think you’re the first one to use the word milieu so that was that was well placed it was it was beautiful. But uh this is a fascinating concept and topic and I I can’t seem to get enough of it because you know I for those of you don’t know I am an older white man so I sort of fall into that that category and I it it feels weird should I even be the guy talking about it but I I I feel like I have some level of you know influence I you know kind of I’m I’m a I I know a lot of people and you know if if that helps if I could bring people in and we can talk and we can start talking about this because we didn’t even get to the you know the the the topic of you know okay yes it’s a very white um field but then you know sort of that the the the the bottom tier is is is is less less um white than the non-white and but when you look into leadership and ownership it’s even more pronounced you know sort of you know that that lack of diversity is even more pronounced.
33:21 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
So you know we didn’t even get into the the nuts and bolts on on your thoughts about what we can do um to sort of help change that I don’t know if you have like a a real short thought on on that but I mean that’s that’s another thing that sort of um has been been been gnawing at me how do we how do we work to get a more diverse workforce well first let me say I’m I’m so happy you’re a uh you know white man doing this okay thank you i’m I’m obviously not a white man but I even have like gray in my beard now it’s terrible but but the fact that you are so welcoming to people who are different than you to have conversations about this I think is really wonderful. I also think there’s so many good things going on in our field. You know for the first time ever ABAI has a DEI board and and that’s gonna be you know wonderful and difficult and and there’ll be lots of growing pains in the process but it’s there the the current and past and future presidents all have a strong commitment to trying to expand and do things differently. The BACB has changed the professional code to include things specifically about diversity. They’ve been considering in really genuine ways how how to have this be part of of what we do you know as professionals in our field. I also think there have been especially behavior analysis in practice has had just a couple of really powerful special issues that have given rise to some organized thinking about these topics. Like I I even still get like tingles on the those of you at home she’s extra smiling now talking about it. It was probably one of the best conferences I’ve attended in years. It really was it was expansive it was very human it was very authentic and it was very smart like like everything um and I would encourage you to have some of those thought leaders in on these conversations too um BSI Behavior and Social Issues is a journal we have that for a long time has been trying to conceptualize and move things forward. So I think there’s a lot of really exciting things going on in our field and I think there are a lot of really scary things going on in our field. And I am going to just mention a few of them because I think um I think you saw in my presentation um I just did some informal Google mapping of where centers are and our centers are primarily in affluent white regions not always but a lot of the time and I think that’s something for our discipline to look at we have joined a healthcare system that is is primarily built for the affluence and for certain groups of people. And I think we’re kind of buying into that system and that may be problematic. I think the voices of autistic people and the concerns are certainly something to listen to. And I think that our discipline is trying to be responsive to that. Those are super hard conversations at all levels because I think actually even sometimes the intersections of autism culture are hard and difficult especially with cultures that are more collective that that have an emphasis in early childhood on teaching children to be part of the collective there’s some tensions there that need to be explored. You know we have a lot of work to do but I think a lot of people are doing it and and and and are trying to do it and are learning to do it. So so I think it’s a hard time and I think we are certainly behind other helping professions in some ways social work education like this is part of training and part of what they’ve been grappling with since maybe the 70s this is a new area for us and there’s a lot to learn.
37:51 Tim Crilly:
But you know and there’s always that stat that gets thrown around you know 50 I don’t know what exactly is 50% of all BCBAs got their certification within the last two years like sort of saying like it’s a new it’s a very young raw group of people which can have a negative when it comes to hey you have a pulse and your BCBA go out and serve that’s a separate topic but maybe we are looking at a group of people sort of that next generation that have grown up in a more I have my eyes open to certain issues than maybe my my cohort things like that. So maybe there is some some some silver lining in that sort of raw new group of people yes you’ve hit on something really important.
38:34 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
There’s more than a silver lining they are young people that are growing up in a world that has changed dramatically and I think they have they are more open and they have energy and they realize that um that that that we’re all in this together and and that is I think amazing and wonderful like that energy that they bring um I think it’s uncomfortable sometimes for the status quo but I think I think they’re they’re a gold lining I I think it actually is a is a good thing.
39:16 Tim Crilly:
It’s finally something I can hang my hat on because that that stat always scares me. But you know and that’s a different sort of conversation as it relates to how are we training people are they really ready and equipped to just like sort of jump in and sort of the financial structure the way way it’s set up right now sort of forces agencies to do that. And you know so I know you and I aren’t going to be able to to solve that that issue. But obviously new young energetic people with a different worldview bringing that to our community can only bring about some some positive change.
39:50 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
So you know I love it. Can I say this this goes back to the original point in this article that I’ve read recently like the the need that we have in these times to hold two things in in our hands and and be comfortable doing that even though there’s an extreme tension between them so so the fact that we have so many people that may not be deeply trained or experienced or wise but they also come with other kinds of knowledge and energy you know I think the trick is how how to harmonize those two things and keep raising where we are and and our ability to do what most people who enter behavior analysis, you know, I think most people enter behavior analysis to make the world a better place. You know it’s just the specifics of how you do that actually end up being quite complicated.
40:50 Tim Crilly:
Sure.
40:51 Dr. Shahla Alai-Rosales:
So so us figuring out how to do it under these conditions is is both really hard but also very exciting.
41:01 Tim Crilly:
I I I I fully agree and I’m gonna stop complaining about how young everybody is that’s my new that’s my new goal. So uh well we have blown way past this the stop sign. So thank you so much for for joining us and and thank you everybody out there listening I hope you enjoyed this conversation as as much as I had having it