Episode Description
Shane Isley BCBA, from The Performance Thinking Network, joins the show to talk about his work with ABA organizations and helping them standardize procedures and practices. In addition to his day job, Shane recently co-authored a book titled, Helping Your Family Thrive: A Practice Guide to Parenting with Positive Behavior Support. During the conversation, Shane and Tim dive into the topic of caregiver guidance and offers great insight that we think both parents and clinicians will enjoy.
Full transcript
0:10 Tim Crilly:
Hello and welcome back to another episode of ABA Unfiltered. I’m your host, Tim Crilly. For as long as they let me keep doing this, I’ll continue to be the host. But uh, you know, we’ll see. We’re getting to the end of uh season three here, so we’ll see if we get renewed and picked up. So a lot of a lot of pressure on on Shane Isley, our guest today, to kind of keep that momentum going for us. Uh Shane is another uh friend of Amanda, who we’ve mentioned in the past and has been a guest on the show, and she seems to be doing a lot of the booking for the uh the podcast this season. So I appreciate her um introducing us to Shane Isley. He is a senior consultant with the Performance Thinking Network, and we’re gonna hear a little bit about that um in a moment. But uh really what we’re here to talk about is um a book he is involved in uh entitled Helping Your Family Thrive, a practical guide to parenting with positive behavior support. And that’s the thing that really jumped out at me and what was sort of an exciting uh opportunity to talk with Shane. So we’ll jump into that in a moment. But um, Shane, if you don’t mind, maybe introduce yourself, give us the 30,000-foot view of who you are and your career, and then um maybe a little bit of uh what you’re doing currently.
1:29 Shane Isley:
Yeah, well, first, thank you for for inviting me to to come onto your podcast. This is uh pretty exciting for me. Um, you say that now.
1:37 Tim Crilly:
We’ll see how you feel in 25 minutes.
1:39 Shane Isley:
Sure, sure. Uh as you mentioned, yeah, I’m a uh a performance consultant for the performance thinking network. I um currently uh work uh in the area of behavioral health, helping organizations um improve processes and um and helping them develop uh leaders and managers within their organizations. And um before working as a performance consultant, I had um started and uh a behavioral health organization. Um we ended up uh merging with a larger one and um and that organization had two divisions. One was a family services division, where we provided intensive um behavior analytic services or what we refer to as family systems intervention to um families with children with extreme challenging behavior. And then the other division we provide performance um consulting to organizations in the social and uh health sector. So that’s kind of why I have those two different uh uh skill sets.
3:07 Tim Crilly:
Sorry, I muted myself. I apologize. Uh what um what type of work is it that you guys are doing at the performance thinking network?
3:17 Shane Isley:
Yeah, so um we provide uh programs um to small, mid-sized, large uh organizations. Um my team works uh specifically in the behavioral health sector and um providing um a program called the Performance Thinking Coach, which is aimed at helping um develop leaders and managers and specifically um clinical supervisors. And we also provide performance consulting, so process improvement, strategic planning, job design, and helping organizations with implementation planning or what we call change management.
4:01 Tim Crilly:
So do you work primarily with sort of ABA organizations or do you have a little bit of a wider uh field in in terms of the groups you’re working with?
4:11 Shane Isley:
Yeah, we we certainly have a have a wider uh wider fuel, but um, as you know, the um the you know ABA autism intervention sector is is one of the fastest growing in the um in the nation. And so a lot of our clients are are ABA companies or um so I mean I’m just not this is always what happens.
4:40 Tim Crilly:
I get curious about something I didn’t know what it was until we start talking about it. So is it smaller groups that are sort of maybe looking to um expand and they want to make sure that the that the process that they have in place are going to make them successful? Or is it larger groups, uh, people that maybe are looking backwards and saying, wow, we need to clean some stuff up, we need help, or is it a mixture?
5:04 Shane Isley:
Yeah, it is it is a mixture. It’s funny that you asked that. Um most uh like most of my clients right now are those that sort of are um have experienced some rapid growth and are realizing that they need to put sort of what we refer to a more robust performance infrastructure in place. So um, you know, defining and supporting their processes, having really clear job descriptions, ensuring that their you know, leaders and managers have the skills and tools and strategies they need to support their teams or departments. Um so a lot of times people come to us when um they’re sort of experiencing that that growth at first. Now we’ve definitely worked with organizations where you know things are just not um the organization is not very healthy. And so there’s there’s a lot of fires and and therefore they’re looking for for some solutions. And then, of course, organizations you know like um like BlueSprig, who has had uh some of your learning and development folks attend our practitioner program, where that’s more about building uh sort of an internal performance um division, you know, where people can solve complex performance problems internally inside the organization.
6:35 Tim Crilly:
Awesome. Uh I think it’s nice to hear that people are raising their hand and saying, hey, I need help. That’s a good, that’s a good thing to hear. Um, because I think it’s this is an industry where it’s very easy to think everything’s going well and not realize that maybe it’s not because unfortunately we don’t have as many sort of regulations or sort of universal practices that can sort of keep guardrails around certain things. It’s it’s very easy for smaller, medium, and large organizations alike to sort of think you’re on the right path and not have any sort of nefarious sort of motivation behind it, but just be doing things wrong and making mistakes that you don’t realize uh and can catch up with you in the long run. So I think it’s good to hear that people are sort of seeking that help.
7:22 Shane Isley:
Yeah, I mean, um I think that there’s been there’s been a number of things that have helped with that. So um, you know, I think the the work that say the the you know behavioral health center of excellence has done in terms of of their accrediting and setting out some standards. Um, you know, the even though it’s not the organizational level, the the BACB, you know, setting um um standards of of practice at least for individual practitioners. But but also, you know, most people get into this line of work because they want to help people and um they want to use the science of behavior to to help children and and families succeed. And as they begin to grow, they they start to get concerned about the quality of services, right? Because you know, now they’re in multiple locations or maybe multiple states, and it’s it’s difficult without certain systems and processes in in place and and and leaders who have some um you know experience in solving performance problems and to uh to for that quality of services to you know take a dip. And and so, you know, I think that’s a big reason too, is how do we maintain quality programming while still being able to help more and more children and families? And so a lot of the clients that come to us, that’s that’s the major um motivation, and that aligns very much with my values, and and so it ends up being a nice fit.
9:03 Tim Crilly:
That’s that’s that’s really cool. I I I I like that, you know, as a as an um industry, we are starting to see some of that that evolution. Um, you know, I think a younger generation coming up that were, you know, sort of trained in the the the actual world of the BCBA existing, as opposed to sort of where I came from, where the BCBA wasn’t really a thing when I started, it was there, but no one really had it. And then suddenly, like, okay, insurance mandates and whoa, we got to sort of put on our big boy clothes and get get in the game here. And some of that older generation is is you know retiring and moving on. And you have younger people that have just sort of come in in a more regulated environment, but maybe not quite to the level that it’s probably headed or or should be. Um, so it’s nice to see that there are groups like you guys out there that are sort of helping to maybe help people put those guardrails in place so we can, you know, not ruin it for each other. You know, one bad apple can really make a big impact as it relates to funding sources and and you know, sort of services being less available um down the road. So good work. Uh okay, so the book. Why the book? How did you get involved? Who’s this with? Um, and how long does it take to write a book? Because it sounds like a really hard thing to me.
10:26 Shane Isley:
Yeah, so um so as you mentioned, the uh the book is is called Helping Your Your Family Thrive. Um so it it is intended um for for parents and other you know primary caregivers who want to approach their children’s behavior proactively, positively, and uh functionally. Um I was very fortunate to work on this book with um Drs. Meme Hieneman and Sarah Fefer, and then um Missy Sieders. And this actually is this book is an expansion on um a book that Dr. Hieneman and Karen Elfner and Jane Sergay um wrote called Parenting with Positive Behavior Support. And that book was designed for parents who are facing behavioral challenges with their kids, where this book is much more for you know any family, um uh parents, caregivers, family members who want to enhance their family functioning and really produce the best possible behavior in their children, um, you know, while helping them grow socially and emotionally. And so this uh this work or this book came out of the work that we did in my um family services division called Blueprints. And um in in blueprints, we really took a systemic or holistic approach to intervention. So um we were we were serving children with extreme challenging behavior and that were at risk of out-of-home placement. And so we really needed a more comprehensive model that was um was geared towards the family, helping the family set up you know, supports in their homes and um build the skills and confidence needed to parent their children, while also helping the children learn, you know, adaptive behavior skills, social emotional skills. And so during this process, um uh I worked really closely with um Dr. Meme Hieneman, who um unfortunately very sadly uh passed away just this past August after battling cancer for many years. Um I was very fortunate, and my group was very fortunate to work with her. Um she’s very much an expert in positive behavior support and how to apply that to families. And we built a parent curriculum that we ended up calling family foundations. And um our providers, you know, walk through the steps with our families to teach them these skills and strategies and help set up their home and help focus on their own mental health as well as providers. And and we had great success. And so a lot of what we learned there that was aimed at the family unit, you know, um, informed some of the stuff that that we wrote in the book.
13:55 Tim Crilly:
That’s that’s great. So um very collaborative process, which I I imagine, you know, has its its positives and challenges alike, but it must be really cool to sort of get that feedback from someone that you sort of work with and respect, as well as get to sort of see what they have to say about it and how that then shapes your your process. So a collaborative book must be a challenge, yet sort of, you know, maybe almost more of a reward when it’s when it’s complete. Absolutely.
14:26 Shane Isley:
Absolutely. This is this is something that um, so you know, um Meme is very much sort of a was a force and um and and had published, you know, uh three three books before. So she definitely drove the process. Um you know, Sarah had had been working also with with um Meme and um for many years, and she’s such an expert, she’s an um associate professor and just an expert in the research in the background. And and so she brought that um component. You know, Missy was our parent, you know, eyes and ears. Does this gonna land with parents? Is this um, you know, because we included exercises and case studies and and we really wanted it to be um something that resonated with parents, the parents could pick up that was not overly technical or um you know included lots of jargon. And and so we, you know, with with sort of my direct application, or really my team’s application of of you know the the solutions and strategies that we were writing about in the book, it was a really nice combination. But um yeah, definitely there was some push and and pull about what should be included and and how we should say it and um knowing that also you know the professional community would be hopefully using this um uh book to kind of support the work that they do with families.
16:03 Tim Crilly:
But you don’t consider it just a book for for sort of that that ABA provider to read, it really is uh something that would benefit any and all parents.
16:14 Shane Isley:
Absolutely. So if if um you know if if you had uh you know a parent that was struggling and at your child’s school um that could be appropriate, or um, you know, if you’re uh if you just you’re a new parent and then they’re trying to to sort of you know get ahead of things, kind of get out in front of you know, even just little misbehavior. But it also can be a really good uh support, you know, uh resource so that for you know professionals when they are working closely with parents in a parent-focused intervention or a more comprehensive um intervention, that there’s a lot of um strategies and exercises and that can be very useful in in helping um you know propel their own intervention. So it’s it’s it was really meant for a wide uh audience.
17:16 Tim Crilly:
Okay, that’s great. Where can people, I mean, might as well plug it. Where can people pick up a copy?
17:22 Shane Isley:
Yeah, so it’s uh it’s not gonna be out till till next year. Oh um, yeah, so the it’s uh they go to Brooks Publishing, um the website, and uh is not gonna be released now until April 1st of next year. However, uh Brooks is very generous um to offer a 10% discount code to your listeners for any any any books that they want to purchase. So you just go to the website Brooks Publishing and you enter um HFT uh 10, and you can get 10% off off any book. And um and you can also, I I think we’ll be able to pre-order this this book as well.
18:06 Tim Crilly:
That’s awesome. That might be our first promotional anything on the show. I think you just made history. Uh officially we have a sponsor. That’s all that’s how I’m gonna that’s how I’m gonna look at this. Uh we just go ahead.
18:21 Shane Isley:
Oh no, just I thank the kind of publishing. Yeah, they’ve they’ve been really great with us.
18:27 Tim Crilly:
That’s cool. That’s cool. Well, send them send them my thank you. Um uh okay. So along those lines, you know, I I think uh part of the reason I really wanted to kind of get your perspective was when we look at the role of the VCBA uh currently, um, you know, I think we’re very good at assessment program development. We, you know, oversight, just in general, but oversight of of the case and the RBT, all those things that go into making sure that that that one-on-one therapy session is moving along in the way it should. What I feel is one of the challenges, and maybe you know, there’s there’s a lot of reasons for it, but sort of that caregiver guidance role within within our programming. And it’s something that is it has a code and it’s expected and you know, and it’s vital to the success of programming. Where do you see some of those challenges um with our workforce and and maybe uh in an indirect result, sort of the families themselves? Why why do we find that to be such a challenge to maybe maintain a healthy caregiver guidance sort of process and relationship?
19:43 Shane Isley:
Yeah, I I think that that’s I mean, I that’s a great question. I think it’s uh it’s one that doesn’t have an easy answer. Sure. Um so I can I can kind of take you back to the to um sort of our approach at Blueprints and kind of how we looked at it and and um maybe pull some things out of there that that I think you know if providers um aren’t doing, you know, maybe able to to to learn from. Um so you know, when we kind of I I started off providing, you know, child focused intervention, right? Kind of that’s sort of where child is your client and you’re very focused on building their skills and strategies and um and and helping them in their their you know different environments. And we know from the research that that has been effective. We also know that parent-focused intervention, so just having intervention through the parents, um, can be um very effective for teaching certain um skills and strategies and also helping um improve um you know quality of life in in the home or reducing behavioral challenges, which which ultimately will lead to that. And so we kind of looked and said, okay, we we know parent-focused intervention is effective, and we know that child-focused intervention is effective. What happens if you create a program that that brings both of those together but sees them as um not just components, but but rather a whole program. And and so that sort of started with everything that we did. So for example, the parent wasn’t our client or the child, the family was, right? So we would starting from um you know how we talked about our services to you know the initial agreement that parents Um signed, it talked about family participation and that you know that going forward we were going to help the child and the parents um you know collectively, equally, and that it was about achieving outcomes for the family and that were larger than one um of the individual you know uh uh family members. And and so it really started with a systems approach to intervention and looking at you know the whole family system and looking at their dynamics, how do they interact with one another? You know, how is the parent-child um interactions and relationships, you know, are they able to access the community safely and successfully, but also in a way that makes everyone happy, you know, looking at how the you know, the parents or caregivers, um, their relationship, as well as as siblings and and friends. And so I think when you ask the question, going back to your your question, I think one of the things is that if we approach intervention from um uh a systemic uh way, you know, from assessment to intervention, that’s gonna be more helpful because you start to set really clear expectations about parent involvement and that really transformational change can’t be uh can’t occur without um without sort of all players on board. So I think I think I think that that’s that’s one thing. And then um another is looking at so similar to to how you know we start to when we assess skills for um the child to see, okay, you know, what are some things that we can um teach them that’s gonna help them contact more reinforcement, right? Help them uh enter into friendships and um and and that sort of thing. Approaching parent intervention in the same way. So what’s gonna help them reduce stress and um overall? What’s gonna help improve an overall um healthier family system, improving the quality of life, right? And looking at at the intervention from from their perspective as well, and having goals that are directly um targeted for them. So sometimes that could just be you know more confidence when it comes to applying um behavior analytic strategies to prevent and minimize problem behavior. Uh so I think those are two things that you know would help um providers today.
25:13 Tim Crilly:
So I I I I totally agree. And I I love the idea of looking at the it as a family system. I don’t know if that was the exact term you use, but it is that this is how many spokes on that that wheel, if you have the child in the center, are having that that influence on the program and the development of the child, that you have to make sure that everyone’s on the same page. And I think, you know, for me, it sounds like you’re describing um maybe there’s a a training issue that that is really part of the problem. Um, I don’t think the task list, and maybe the sort of the up the pending changes might have more in that process of training future BCBAs in this regard, but I think it is a lacking sort of element of how we’re trained to become a BCBA. We don’t spend a ton of time on this dynamic. And I don’t know how many um agencies take these employees and then sort of put the systems in place for for their staff and their families to be successful. It sounds like, you know, you mentioned um family foundations, a curriculum. I I know there’s a handful of curriculums, but it just doesn’t seem like anyone is really using them to the way that maybe they should. Can you sit down and create a real process to help a family get from A to B, B to C, and so on? I think a lot of people come in and sit down on day one and they try to boil the ocean with the family, and they’re like, well, we’re gonna solve everything right away. And those aren’t realistic expectations, and that sets you down a path that’s not going to work, that frustration can build, and then that parent trainer, the caregiver guidance dynamic can can start to break down. So, do you what can we do from a training standpoint to maybe uh mitigate some of that?
27:00 Shane Isley:
Yeah, yes, I think you you raise a uh a few great points there. So one is I I mean, that is what’s why I feel like very fortunate in my um, I was very fortunate to go to the University of North Texas um behavior analysis um program. And in there I I learned about behavioral systems. And you know, some people ask me like, why do you do parent training and then work with companies? Those don’t go together at all. Those don’t mix. Right. And they’re if it gives me a very confused look, like I made up my job or or or something, or my expertise. And actually they’re very similar, um, in the sense that that both are systems and family is a mini corporation in a way, right? It’s actually you you you make a great point, and that’s kind of uh you know the sort of rigor that we would apply. So, you know, when we cover this in the book too, when a family has a clear vision and and goals that they want to achieve, when they have you know um routines that that they go through that are you know clear, and um parents know how to support children through those routines. Also, to to some degree we have processes, right? I mean, we we need a you know, we have transportation for our kids, we you know, have meal preparation, you know, we have you know washing, cleaning. Um so so when you you look at at it about okay, how do we um ensure that this is functioning well and that the players are contributing to the best of their ability, but also that we’re establishing the skills for people to contribute to the family. So I think I think from a training perspective, it’s it’s one um, you know, helping uh professionals learn a behavioral systems approach or to to intervention. I I think also the there’s a big difference in working with children than working with um you know adults, right? Parents. So especially parents that that are you know maybe under an enormous amount of stress. Absolutely. Um you know, and so the ways in which that we teach and intervene and deliver consequences are much different. And so having um practice and feedback and strategies that that are effective and have been proven effective, um, you know, for professionals to learn that, I think that that’s really important. Um and because a lot of times what we found, and we found this in our own um in our own company and learned a lot of lessons about it, is that you know providers would be nervous in terms of um uh enforcing contingencies with parents, that they um it’s hard to tell them no or it’s hard to set set you know boundaries. Um and those are the things that a good you know facilitator can do. Um and and explaining to them why this is so important and the role that they play and building that trust and relationship, and also having them being able to give you um feedback and to make adjustments for for their family. So I think that would be another area that that I would say um is helping professionals or providers establish you know the skills needed to facilitate learning for um typically developing adults. They’re under an enormous amount of stress because of their current, you know, their child’s behavior or current family system.
31:18 Tim Crilly:
I I you know you say that the trust, I think that’s a real key component because it it is it’s a fine line to walk between I am coming into your home, into your life, and I’m gonna try to, you know, air quotes tell you what to do or how to you know interact with your child. It it is not it’s not a natural dynamic, um, and it does take time. And then you have to sort of walk the line between um, you know, where where where do you stay on the side of appropriate relationship and sort of overstepping your bounds because a lot of times you can become the only person that this parent can can talk to about what they’re going through. And, you know, is that BCBA or is that professional really the right professional to be sort of working with the parent as it relates to those sorts of things? So I think we also need to do a better job of encouraging families to to be seeking outside help when it comes to more behavioral therapy for themselves to make sure that they’re in the right headspace as a as a caregiver to be that active participant. And it’s not just sort of sort of dumping all of their built-up um uh you know uh emotion and everything on that behavior analyst who maybe isn’t quite trained to do those sorts of things. So uh, but I think we do find that happens more often than not.
32:44 Shane Isley:
Yeah, I’m really glad you brought up uh both of those points. I think that so one of the things that you know um Dr. Hieneman taught me and I really learned, you know, from the PBS or positive behavior support community is this is the idea that that you know we might have a title as behavioral consultants, but that’s not going to be effective when working with families. So it is uh a partnership, it’s a collaboration, it’s it’s not consulting. So that they are the experts in their you know, children. They are they know what you know they’re what they want from their family. And and so it’s it is not an expert-led, you know, model. It’s here’s where we are, where do we want to go, and how can I support you in doing that? And and that’s very much the approach um that that we learned to take at blueprints, and that ended up helping us be most effective. So um the idea of coming in and saying, you know, I know what you need to do and I know how to do that, is um we really just saw that that that was not successful. Um so you know, that’s that’s one thing. And I think the the other is that um we learned very, very, you know, just early on that this was very much um clinical, you know, uh behavioral model. And so, you know, at first learning what was referred to in the you know, some of the research is behavioral counseling, it’s much more um, I think people now would would understand uh more like acceptance commitment therapy. And um, and so not only did we train our professionals in that, we partnered with psychologists and mental health professionals and brought those in because you know, so that family were receiving services from us, but then also from you know, well-trained um clinicians that may have different areas of expertise. So whether that was you know the parent relationship or possibly if there was some some trauma. Um so it was very much more of a holistic um model and and had multiple um expertise and and and service providers that contributed to that. So absolutely, professionals need to know kind of where their scope of clinical competence kind of, you know, when their begins and ends, yeah. Yeah, it begins and ends, and then bring in other professionals. But I also think that if you’re going to be successful working with families, you need to have have you know skills and strategies um that can be pulled in from acts, from um counseling and fields that have been doing this, you know, uh for a long time. Yeah.
36:05 Tim Crilly:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of correlations as you look at, you know, just family therapy in general or sort of people dealing not maybe just with autism, but sort of other um conditions with their children. There’s a lot of support systems that are out there that can, you know, sort of make sure that that parent is making sure they’re taking care of themselves at some point. Um I think that’s a great message to to sort of um leave leave here as we sort of wrap things up. So um very fascinating conversation. And as always, I didn’t get to half of my list. Um, but uh maybe when that book comes out in April, you can come on and we can talk a little bit more and make sure people know that that that will be available. So before you go, can you give the uh sort of the promo code and where people can go for that one last time?
36:55 Shane Isley:
Yeah, of course. Um so go to https://brookespublishing.com/ and then the discount code is HFT10. Um and you can see that. Is it the number 10 or the T E N? Oh sorry, the number 10. Got it. And you can enter that at checkout um to get the discount.
37:14 Tim Crilly:
Perfect. Um, you know, Shane, I didn’t meet until 20 minutes ago um or you know, 45 minutes ago at this point. It was a pleasure talking with you. I really would like to to reschedule for April right around that release, because I think there’s so much more we could talk about as it relates to the family system. I just love that concept and I’m gonna be thinking about it for the next few hours. So I really appreciate you coming on. Um and like you know, thanks to Amanda and UNT, I guess, for supplying so many uh great guests for me this this season. It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. Okay. Thanks everybody out there for uh tuning in and check out that that that book release and sort of that the um go buy something with that discount code, it’ll make you feel cool. So tune in next time. We’ll talk soon.