Episode Description
Tune in this week as we celebrate National Hispanic Heritage Month with Isaac Bermudez from LABA. Isaac discusses his role in the creation of LABA and how they are working nationally to build a more diverse workforce in the ABA community. Tim and Isaac discuss the importance of mentorship and how strong mentors can help shape the next generation. Tune in for a great conversation about diversity in our field as well as to learn a bit about how Isaac helped Tim to become a BCBA.
Full transcript
0:08 Tim Crilly:
Hello and welcome to another episode of ABA Unfiltered. I’m your host, Tim Crilly, and this week marked the beginning of National Hispanic Heritage Month. So I thought, what a better way to celebrate that than to bring on an old friend of mine, Mr. Isaac Bermudez, who is, I don’t know, probably a co-founder or at least high up there in the founding of an organization called LABA. He’s also, you know, a very principled and active member in what they’re trying to do nationally. He happens to be someone very integral in my career. And when we get a chance, we’re going to take a brief jump down memory lane and talk a little bit about why it’s Isaac’s fault that I’m actually sitting here in this chair today and kind of how funny, funny life works. So Isaac, before we jump into everything and sort of the great work that you and LABA are doing, could you just give us a little brief overview of who you are and sort of your your role in the ABA world?
1:13 Isaac Bermudez:
Sure. Well, first, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I always look forward to chatting with you, Tim, and shooting the breeze. But yeah, no, I’m uh my name is Isaac Bermudez. I uh I’ve been in the field since 1998. Uh people could do the math. Sure. And in 2015 is when there were discussions with the co-founders of the Latino Association for Behavior Analysis, uh, the abbreviations at LABA. Uh I was talking to Jose Rios and Ruth Tello-Di Leva, which are the two co-founders, and we just uh were talking about uh the need for diversity in our field. And that’s where LABA was born, out of a walk around the block and just the uh the assessed need for diversity in our field. Uh and you know, we’ve been doing this for over five years now, and I look forward to talking to you about it. Um that’s you know, on the diversity front, on the on the professional front, you know, I’ve been uh a provider of ABA services for quite a while. And you know, we provide services with children with autism and all that fun stuff, but you know, we’ll focus on LABA, I think.
2:22 Tim Crilly:
Sure. I I appreciate that. And you know, you’ve had a very uh diverse you know career. You’ve you’ve worked for a few organizations, you’ve seen a lot of a lot of things. So I think that perspective that you bring is a great resource to like sort of a younger, younger generation. So I think can we talk a little bit there, sort of off the bat? When when you guys talk about LABA and what you’re trying to accomplish, what are your mission, what are your goals as an organization and how successful do you feel? Because I have to imagine sort of doing something like this on the as a side project is not the easiest thing. It probably could be a full-time, full-time role if you really wanted to do what you wanted to do. So, you know, sort of those mission and goals and how the passion of the people involved in it is is probably a main driver, I’m gonna guess.
3:11 Isaac Bermudez:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, you know, I think uh Jose Rios, one of my, you know, really important mentors, uh, was a visionary of this who’s been, you know, for decades a leader, not just in our field of applied behavior analysis, but also in a lot of the diversity movements. Uh he marched with Cesar Chavez and just has a rich history of you know being um in the area of uh diversity. So, you know, he was uh one of the visionaries uh along with Ruth, who was another co-founder. Um, you know, and and I think uh several years ago, um we we were talking about just the lack of diversity. When you take a look at the boards, whether they’re state boards or national boards in our field, um, and we actually uh at the time uh pulled the data in terms of the diversity and what that looked like. Um, the representation of Latinos in those boards, along with the other um uh ethnicities was was really lacking. And I think that that provided the inspiration and the passion for building an association that really took a look at that. And you know, so so big parts of the mission of LABA are to empower a BIPOC uh practitioner and um and really uh provide them with opportunities uh such as networking, uh learning, uh branding, and so forth. So that way, as they say, uh and it’s become a little bit cliche now, so they could have a seat at the table, you know, um, when it comes to those leadership positions. So a lot of what we do since the very beginning is you know, we provide a lot of mentorship, a lot of learning, a lot of networking to prepare the younger generation so that way they could be ready to represent on our leadership boards. And and it doesn’t have to be um just the boards, also in their companies. Um, if they ever want to want to own a company, whatever it is, you know, we want to empower them to be able to make those decisions and representation.
5:22 Tim Crilly:
So mentorship, I have to imagine that’s one of the most important aspects of what you guys are able to do. Because I feel like in our field, in general, not everyone ends up with the strongest mentorship process. You sort of you fall into situations and maybe you get lucky where you have someone that sort of really has a strong understanding of what it should look like as a you know, a clinician in the field and in the community. Others you can fall into a place where it’s just really trying to get a pipeline of people to take an exam so they can then go out and and and work and build. And that’s just sort of the unfortunate aspect of the ABA world right now, which I think is a separate conversation that it that needs to sort of be be having. Um, but for you guys and and your mentorship, how does that look? Because I have to imagine it’s not all in in person, it’s probably spread out uh uh around the country. And and maybe, you know, are you talking about different things or is there a a clinical aspect where, hey, I am having a problem with something that’s going on in my caseload? Can I go to go to you? Or do you guys sort of focus on more of those those those other issues that you were talking about before?
6:41 Isaac Bermudez:
Yeah, I I think um, I mean, there’s always going to be the um the support provided for some of the clinical questions that people may have. But I think you know the core of it is supporting somebody in advancing professionally so that way they could grow as a leader and make a bigger impact in our field. So again, you know, keep in mind that that LABA, although it’s not exclusive for Latino practitioners, which is one of the things that was in the very beginning confusing, um, we had a we had to market ourselves as everybody’s welcome because everybody truly is welcome. And you know, when you take a look at our membership and you take a look at those that are attracted to our meetings and events, it’s not just the Latino practitioner. Um, you know, we have uh a lot of other ethnicities that are involved, um, even in our advisory board. So, but but to go back to mentorship, you know, I think that’s the um that’s the core of what this is all about. You know, I think, you know, even the inspiration for uh my involvement was because of the mentorship that Jose has provided me and and this being an opportunity that that mentorship has given me in co-founding LABA. And I and I’m sure Ruth Tello-Di Leva, who’s the other co-founder, would say the same thing that this was just a byproduct of the mentorship that Jose’s provided. So I think um that being the inspiration, I think that’s what LABA gives to the members and to anybody who’s interested, is an opportunity to get to receive mentorship at a larger scale. Um, actually, LABA does have a mentorship group called Fast Track that Jose runs. And it’s an intensive mentorship program that you know he brings in those that are uh dedicated and he makes it rigorous. Where, you know, when he started that mentorship program, it’s you know, they meet once a month, they meet uh an entire Saturday, and those individuals, those small group individuals, um get put in situations through projects where you know they put themselves out there and they practice uh leading and disseminating at a larger scale. So that initial group, the growth has been amazing. I mean, some of those that individuals that were in that initial mentorship group through LABA are now um developing other uh equity diversity uh groups, and you know, just the work that they’re doing is amazing. So um they’re on the second group now, and that group has gone more national, where you know, through the power of uh being able to meet virtually, um, you know, they’ve been able to meet with people and bring in mentorship to people all across the country. So um mentorship is a big part of what we do in LABA. Um and even the the meetings that were a big part of our of our connection to the members. Um, initially were they were meetings in person. Um obviously now it’s a little bit harder to meet that way, but you know, mentorship was a was always a big part of it. You know, we would bring guest speakers uh with the idea of uh trying to uh teach and empower and inform um those that came. Um and then we would have networking events and social events to again, you know, connect and you know, get to know each other and hopefully uh develop those relationships that can become mentorship relationships. So um that’s definitely at its core.
9:58 Tim Crilly:
I have to imagine sort of the the lack of ability to attend conferences over the last uh 18 months or whatever it is, sort of you know, it probably has dampened your ability to to reach out and and sort of uh bring more people into the fold. Have you found that to be a challenge? Or have you guys it’s funny you say that? Uh we we actually found the opposite.
10:19 Isaac Bermudez:
Um we found that this is why um this is why I asked the questions, you know? Yeah, no, it’s a it’s a good question. Um you know, so so for the first three three years, uh we were meeting in person. So uh we’re because we’re located here in Southern California, you know, it drew a Southern California crowd. Sure. Um once the pandemic hit, you know, we moved everything to like webinar styles and provided CEUs through uh you know this remote uh medium, and you know, we were able to start attracting people from across the country. Um and so then uh that grew the the reach. Uh we actually during the pandemic started our membership program, and our membership has been all across the country because of that. I I think if we would have opened up a membership um prior to the pandemic, it would have had a smaller reach. Okay. So I so I think um just uh coincidentally, uh it did allow us to be able to grow a little bit more.
11:16 Tim Crilly:
I mean, it is a good point. I mean, if people especially um sort of maybe during that time period, we’re probably a little bit more open to trying something different and new. And you see it, you know, you see something on social media, and hey, that speaks to me. I should, I should check this out, and I could do it from you know from the computer. It it makes it a whole lot easier. So I think that’s great that you’re able to sort of still have that impact and and gain new new ground during during that challenging time.
11:47 Isaac Bermudez:
Yeah, well, and and another thing about the challenging time too, um, I think it was around the summer of 2020, last summer, when we had all of the social unrest. Um, that also elevated those that are maybe a that needed to be attached and working with diversity groups. Um, you know, at that time you start seeing other diversity associations come up. Um, and you know, so it really provided a very depressing time for associations such like such as LABA to uh have a point of view and to be able to continue informing others about you know diversity issues. So um that’s that got LABA really active. And you know, we started uh hearing from you know state associations, uh getting invited to coalitions, you know, to be able to provide a point of view of the association because the uh the social movement became so needed, you know, due to the social unrest of the world. Sure.
12:47 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, that’s that’s you know unfortunate, but that’s a great point as well. Uh okay, so you know, you’ve you’ve kind of you’ve touched on it. Um so obviously sort of that that diversity um question, you know, you look at you look at those stats, you look at um you know, sort of what’s going on in the field. I think it’s safe to say that you know, from an academic standpoint, um this field is uh mostly older white men. And then you look at a workforce demographic, and it’s mostly young women, you know, sort of primarily white, but you know, with with some level of diversity um sprinkled in there. Why why do you think that it is not something because you know autism obviously is not colorblind and it it goes across all communities and and all spectrums of life. Why is it in in your opinion, do you have a thought on on why this field doesn’t have more of a diverse workforce?
13:54 Isaac Bermudez:
That’s a that’s a deep question. Um I don’t I don’t know for sure. I I know um I guess I guess you could take a look at the college programs that are preparing behavior analysts and where they’re located. You know, a lot of our a lot of our powerhouse programs um are in the Midwest, are in Middle America. You know, um I think when you take a look at more um city programs, inner city programs, there may be less. I know the program that I went to um really um it tailored to a more diverse student population that was preparing themselves to go into this workforce um at Cal State LA. You know, so I think um more programs like that uh are definitely needed to be able to, you know, attract a more diverse uh provider community. Um, you know, so I so I I I would look at the root of where we’re pulling and preparing our next generation of ABA practitioners and make sure that there’s diversity there and that there’s good standards for diversity to make sure that it’s feeding um the provider community and providing diversity there.
15:07 Tim Crilly:
So it it it it could boil down to it’s a lack of awareness, a lack of education on what sort of career might be available to to the average to the average person. Yeah. Because, you know, I think for the most part, a lot of us, I mean, it’s it’s different. You you know, you you said 1998, somewhere in there. Um, you know, I was a a little bit after you, and we can get to that in a second. Um but I fell into it. You know, I’m sure you sort of fell into it. You know, I went back to school twice because I sort of got on this this path to to the ABA world by accident. But I think that’s less and less now because I think, you know, fortunately the the BACB has really created a better standard for who should be doing what. The RBT has you know sort of created a new a new path. But are are we as an industry maybe not doing enough to take an RBT and getting them down that that path? Or do you think it’s getting better as time has gone by? More more people that are entering the field at an entry-level position are maybe headed towards yeah, towards that BCBA, or is it still sort of the uh the other way around? You sort of you you know you want to do this, you find out about it, and you go and do it, and then you enter enter the field. What do you what are you what are you seeing out there?
16:32 Isaac Bermudez:
Um yeah, I mean, I I think I think our field could do more, but I but I will say personally that I think it is beginning to care about this and start doing something about it. I mean, just uh for me, the fact that the DACB started taking a look at our demographic and publishing the percentage of you know the different ethnicity groups um that are RBTs, that are BCABAs, BCBAs to have an awareness, um, I think is always a good start just to kind of take a look at the landscape and what that looks like. Um and you know, I think we’re also in a really young field, you know. I think as as we continue to grow and mature and you know, really identify the needs for a diverse provider community because we have a diverse clientele, you know, I think it’s going to push us more into supporting and mentoring and teaching the next generation of diverse providers. Um, you know, can we do more? 100%, we could do more, you know, but but I think um there’s now some awareness, you know, and I think it’s just a matter of continuing to not lose that need, yeah, and take a look at inspiring and mentoring the next generation of those that are coming in and just kind of like how I’m sure you and I fell into it. We were just going like, oh, this sounds cool. This is the we’re, you know, um, but but it probably took somebody to inspire us to be like, hey, you you could go to the next level, you know. So we need to be the inspiration to the younger generation and make sure that who we’re who we’re reaching out to is diverse and continue to grow that community. Yeah.
18:04 Tim Crilly:
You know, and it probably starts at a high school level too. I mean, you know, if if if you found out that there’s this this job available and you can sort of learn the ropes and sort of get a sense, because let’s be honest, it’s not an easy job. But if if you find that passion and it’s and it’s it’s for you, you know, there’s a lot of great opportunity out there to sort of grow as a professional. Um, you know, and I don’t know if we we we send that message um as often as as we should. Um, you know, uh and you know, the the the turnover rates and things, and it’s just like you just focus as an industry or business owners or whatever you want to call it, you spend so much time focused on just sort of maintaining staff. And it it becomes harder to then sort of mentor and bring staff along because you know the pace of the work you’re doing. So it’s you know, probably you know, outside organizations, people like like you guys and CASP and the board itself, you know, their ability to just sort of like as a as a secondary education tool, sort of sort of bring that awareness and get people within those organizations working at various ABA companies to start asking the right questions of the people that are that they’re working for, I think could be a you know a key element to how we sort of grow because A, we need more BCBAs. There’s you know, you look at the numbers and it’s we’re not making enough or producing enough BCBAs to keep up with the demand. And you know, the more diverse that that workforce can can be, you know, the the the better off we all are.
19:41 Isaac Bermudez:
Right. Um definitely I you know I we we still haven’t met the need, you know, and I think when you take a look at the need from a diverse clientele, you know, those that speak other languages or those that are looking to be treated by somebody that looks like them and has a similar background, I think we’re we’re then even in a worse shape, you know. Um, so so there’s still a lot of need out there. And, you know, I think it’s you know, we got we gotta we gotta start disseminating, you know, like you said, at an early age and making sure that people are aware, just like you know, little kids want to grow up to be uh astronauts and police officers, you know, why why not them say, Hey, I want to be a behavior analyst? I think that’s you know, we uh we work in one of the most amazing sciences in the world. Um, why why don’t more people know about it? You know, we’re just not there yet. And I think uh we got to keep on disseminating and sharing great information, reaching out to those to those communities.
20:37 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, I think what we need to do is we need to sort of get like a Halloween costume uh sort of subset where it’s like, hey, I’m I’m Skinner for Halloween, you know, it’s like my buddy’s the fireman and and I’m Skinner, and you know, obviously I have to kind of project me and holding the pigeon, you know, exactly. It’s a perfect Halloween costume. Right. Yeah, probably think you were they probably think you were like Doc Brown from uh Back to the Future or something like that, but it’s a start, it’s a conversation starter. Um no, I I I think you’re right, because I think you know, obviously just you know, language barriers, um, you know, therapy is hard, therapy is challenging, families need to be able to buy in to uh what this clinician is coming in and and trying to impart to them. Um and you know, if there’s those barriers from a cultural standpoint, a language standpoint, it only makes that process more of a challenge, not just for the clinician, but obviously for that family. So, you know, the more diversity, the more um sort of shared life experience that you can bring into those homes or into your clinics, all the better. So, you know, it’s it’s really exciting some of the some of the stuff you guys are doing. Um, so what is on the docket? Um, any events you guys have coming that you’d like to plug, or you know, where can people find more information about who you guys are, upcoming webinars, that sort of thing.
22:00 Isaac Bermudez:
Yeah, I mean we we actually uh coming up on I believe it’s September 18th, which is Saturday, um, we’ll be hosting, which which, you know, it’ll be relevant to this discussion, um, a panel with various diversity associations. Um, so we have uh BABA, we have um the Florida Cultural Diversity Group, uh, US, we have the um Asian Pacific Pacific Islander Group that are joining to discuss what our efforts are in the diversity space in our field, you know, just share with the community a little bit about each group and just answer some questions about, you know, what we’re each doing and how we could, you know, join forces and continue to push, you know, the diversity needs, you know, and support, you know, what we’re doing um as a collective group. Uh so um I think it’ll be the first time that groups sat will sit down together and have a discussion. So that’s that’s gonna happen. Um, you know, and then we’re we’re continuing to do webinars uh to be able to share information, offer CEUs, um, all virtual, of course. Uh we haven’t moved back to in-person yet. Um I don’t think we know how to be together in person anymore. So we have to we have to like learn some social skills to be able to do that. Baby steps. Uh right, right. Uh and then we’re uh we’re planning, um, you know, because we’re we’re based out of California, um, we were doing uh annual CalABA events that we were hosting. Um, you know, so we’re looking to try to host something in 2022 uh at the CalABA conference, uh just to be able to kind of uh do our thing and um be able to connect with people uh from a conference standpoint. So so yeah, so those are some some of the things coming up and yeah.
23:45 Tim Crilly:
Where can people follow you?
23:48 Isaac Bermudez:
Um so we have a uh Latino Association for Behavior Analysis Facebook group that people could join. We have an Instagram page and you know, they could always go to our website, which is https://www.laba-aba.com/.
24:02 Tim Crilly:
Okay.
24:03 Isaac Bermudez:
And uh we uh try to keep that updated with current events and you know different events that we’re trying to do.
24:09 Tim Crilly:
So that’s great. Um okay, so you know, I Isaac, I really appreciate the the work you do. Um you and I have known each other uh a long time, and I think it’s important to note that um I was being pressured to maybe go and do this whole BCBA thing, and I was sitting on the fence hemming and hawing, and Isaac just you kept after me, you kept saying, no, you gotta do it, you’re gonna, you’re gonna like it, you should do it, you should do it. Um, you know, my wife was pregnant, I didn’t really want to have to go back to school and all that stuff. So um, but I finally gave in and I listened to you and it it sent me on a on a on a path that you know I could have never really dreamed of. And so in in a way, you really are sort of responsible for for a lot of this this madness that has been the last 10, whatever many years of of of my career. So um you’re welcome to thank you and I blame you all at the same time.
25:06 Isaac Bermudez:
Right. You’re welcome and and I’m sorry, but but look at you now. Look at you now.
25:10 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, hosting a podcast, you know, and uh talking to you again.
25:14 Isaac Bermudez:
It’s also I I mean I I really uh I really respect your journey because you’ve taken a very unique journey and you paved quite a quite a you paved trails for for all of us with going into the insurance world and your knowledge about you know kind of the next level stuff that we need to be worried about, you know. I think we need to hear more from you, Tim.
25:33 Tim Crilly:
Yeah, okay. Well, maybe someone will ask me and they can I’ll I can get interviewed one of these days. We can flip the you will flip flip the microphone around. So um Isaac, I really appreciate it. Uh it was fun to get you know caught up and and and talk a little bit about some of the the passion projects that you have going on out there. And uh, you know, we’d love to have you back on any time to talk about any sort of upcoming events. Um, you know, but you guys should take a look at you know their their social media and and and follow along and hopefully contribute to to anything that they’re trying to accomplish on a national level. So again, thanks for thanks for joining us and and thank you out there for for being uh some of our listeners. See you soon. Thank you, everybody.